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September 08, 2010
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New Post 5/19/2008 10:40 AM
User is offline Greg Getz
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Sorting the Confusion of "Missional" - David Fitch Blog 

A friend sent me this link to a blog. http://www.reclaimingthemission.com/ Read the May 7 entry and comment on what goes through your mind.

I was especially intrigued by what Fitch said about the amount of time it takes to gain inroads a truly unchurched community. I was also challenged by the need for training to not only be effective in the length of time it, but also to persevere in it given the length of time for the germination of faith. What does that training look like? How can we access it or even create it (on the mCMTC Wiki?)?

In addition, the whole aspect of Mark Driscoll's challenge is the need for accountability in the missional process. While on the one hand we cannot "lounge among the pagans" waiting for something to happen, on the other hand we cannot make people evangelistic projects. Looking at Jesus, His relationships were authentic (no projects), yet intentional (came to save). As Fitch noted, we need new "standards" for evaluating discipleship expectations and effectiveness (accountability) when we are missionally engaging a multi-generation unchurched person.

Thoughts?

 
New Post 5/19/2008 1:09 PM
User is offline Jeff Krabach
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Re: Sorting the Confusion of "Missional" - David Fitch Blog 

Well I have to say that at first I really liked Mark Driscoll.  I thought that he was a light into a community that needs to be transformed.  But the more I learn of him the more I find that he is as much immerssed in a line of thinking that misses the point as many others are.  As I read this blog and the links that where attached I began to wonder this.  When did the apostles become Christians?  I have no answer for that and was wondering if someone had a thought on that.  If Jesus is our example of how we are to live life then shouldn't we in fact follow his principles of life.

In response to Greg's thought about the line between "lounging" and "projects" I have to agree and disagree.  There has to be a sense of intentionallity (is that a word) but it is not in the person on the other end but in ourselves.  We are called not to convert people.  I imagine most (if not all) of us would agree that it is not I who "converts" my friends but it is God who transforms their lives.  God indeed uses me but I think the way we have viewed him as using us has indeed caused us to think that it is our sole repsonsilibity to convert the heathen.  So the relational approach to evangelism has taken on a project sense and in doing so has spread the hypocrisy of Christianity.  In addition if they are a project then the relationship is not authentic and when you do tell them what you are doign they are even more offended by your behavior than your attempt to "convert" them.  As for "lounging" that should never really exist.  If you are truly passionate about God it should exude out of you.  He should be your life breath.  Everyone you build relationships with should know what you stand for.  And if you don't eminate Christ in your life then you have to rethink your life.  So I guess for me there is no line only Christ.  Someone once said that discipleship will never lead to a person evangelizing on his own.  I agree for two reasons. 1) The wrong motive of doign my duty to God by telling people about him or by offering them fire insurance.  IT has never been about that.  It has always been about a restored relationship with God.  Freedom from eternal damnation is only and added perk to being in the presence of God Most High.  2)  Our "process" of discipleship is broken because it is not challenging people to place Christ as the treasure of our lives.  I have been kicked in the face a lot this last year not by the guys that I would expect to stir up my faith but by my youth leader guy who is younger and less educated than I.  In him I have seen that his passion for Christ exudes and people are aware of it.

I guess in defining missional and all that we have to decide who it is about, us or Christ?  We can create the next great "strategy" all day but in the end this conversation will just take place again with someone else having the next great idea.   Ok I am losing my thought track now.  Enjoy my rambles and let me knwo your thoughts.

 

 
New Post 5/19/2008 3:24 PM
User is offline Chris Dilbone
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Re: Sorting the Confusion of "Missional" - David Fitch Blog 

Conversion isn't my focal point...it is making disciples...there are a lot of "converts" out there that aren't disciples at all, nor has anyone ever challenged them to become disciples(so were they ever really converts?)  It isn't that I don't think "conversion" is important, but before we get more "converts" we better take a look at things and:

a.   know and understand what exactly it is that they are converting to...Is it churchianity? religiosity? following Jesus?

b.   know what to do with them when they get there on their journey

c.   in the words of Rob Bell, "are we smokin' what we're sellin'?"

...otherwise we're just creating more consumers.   Of course all of my relationships with people that don't yet follow Jesus are a means for me to introduce them to Jesus and show them what it looks like to follow him(planting seeds that only the Spirit can make grow).  So although I'm less concerned(or consumed) with "closing the deal" than I used to be, I am completely committed to showing them what it means to follow Jesus.  Getting someone to "pray the sinners prayer" as a point of conversion is a man made practice.  I'm still sorting out what conversion looks like and when someone has "converted" because I think it is more a process with some people and less a "crisis" moment than I used to think.  I will point out again the example of Zacheous.  After spending some time with Jesus he decided to make right all the cheating he had done as a tax collector.  What was Jesus' response?  "Salvation has come to this house."  Did Jesus pray the sinners prayer with him?  Did he agree to take the class "discipleship 101"?  Did he sign up for sunday school? Did he get "plugged into" a small group?

Of course we can only speculate, but I think he just came to the realization that Jesus was who he said he was and that he was going to "follow" him as much as he could understand how.  If we are really following Jesus then people will take note of our lives as we plant seeds(the kingdom or gospel) in the soils of their hearts.  The spirit may cause those seeds to grow, but there is nothing we can do to make them grow.  We can only sow the seed, add a little water(continue to show folks what the kingdom of god looks like), and harvest...the growing is out of our hands.  We also need to remember that only 1 out of the 4 soils in the parable that do end up allowing the seed to grow will actually yield a plant that produces fruit itself.  Not all converts will produce fruit...which begs the question I asked earlier, are they really a convert?  Not up to me to decide...(analogy courtesy of Neil Cole)

Jesus also outlines for us in Matthew 25 what the measuring stick will be when the sheep and goats are separated.

Are the hungry, thirsty, sick, prisoners, and naked being cared for?  Those are the things that mark the life of a follower of Jesus.

 
New Post 5/20/2008 1:54 PM
User is offline Greg Getz
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Re: Sorting the Confusion of "Missional" - David Fitch Blog 

I'm not sure what Jeff ended up "agree[ing] and disagree[ing]" with because I agreed with what he had to say. It IS about Christ!

 
New Post 5/20/2008 6:18 PM
User is offline Jeff Krabach
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Re: Sorting the Confusion of "Missional" - David Fitch Blog 

Hahaha, I don't know anymore either.  I just ramble on.  Maybe if I actually stopped to think it would make more sense.  Whatever.

 
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